Do these politicians really think that everyone has money trees growing out back?? Anyone with an existing pool should have been grandfathered.

It is important to note that the date for compliance is March 15 2012.

It is also important to note that the "readily achieveable" requirement will raise many issues of when the lifts must be put in. In addition, many parks will fall below the size requirements.

The National Association of RV Parks & Campgrounds will advise members on the details of the new regulation.

This is really crazy. After selling Motorhomes for 8 years, we installed two lifts. on motorhomrs, ever. Now lets change every pool in case the folks I sold to come by to use the pool. Yes, I know there are others.
My pool, has a child proof gate with a latching system that is not allowed to be lower than 54 inches. Thus , by making it child proof, someone in a wheel chair could not acsess the pool area as they could not gain entance through the gate.

Remember, in keeping with political correctness " Please pick up the Turd by the clean end "

The Federal insanity never ends. Remember: I'm from the Government and I'm here to help? This was no doubt lobbied into place by the ADA holding hands with the makers of the equipment now required. I keep wondering how the chair bound folks are going to get through the trick latches another government group mandated we install ? Next will be mandatory escorts to facilitate getting into the pool area we lock down for child protection.

I can only conclude that the morons in Washing still have not figured out that all the mandated "make work" stuff flowing out of there, simply costs everyone money and makes this Country less productive. Perhaps we can all make a living taking in each others (green) laundry?

I love that the person in the interview states, "Due to the relatively low cost of installing a lift system, campgrounds and RV parks won't have much of a defense to claim that they should be excluded from the law due to excessive costs."

Is this person for real? I know a handful of campground owners - NOT exactly wealthy folks who can simply make several thousand dollars appear. Most campgrounds struggle to maintain the facilities, pay taxes, and keep prices reasonable for customers.

This law is reflective of the Gov't inability to stop meddling with small business.

Mike, I don't think Richard was slamming campground owners when mentioning the relatively low cost of the lifts. I think he was warning them that the uncaring, unforgiving federal bureaucrats won't care when a campground owner says "I can't afford it."

To a government worker, money is often no object. A solution is available, so business owners should install it and pass the cost on to customers -- that's th way bureaucrats often react.

There also appears to be a lot of confusion with this law and when it will be implemented. If you google "ADA pool regulations 2011," you come up with a bunch of articles saying it will go into effect this year. But, googling "ADA pool regulations 2012" brings up a whole bunch of other articles.

Here's what the Association of Pool and Spa professionals told their members:

"In July 2010, the Department of Justice announced its final rule making. The revised regulations were then published in the Federal Register on September 16, 2010 and will take effect on March 15, 2011. Compliance with these regulations will be required no later than March 15, 2012."

In other words, although the new law goes into effect this year, campground owners won't be hassled for another year. I don't know if that is good news or bad news. Either way, it points to another nonsensical rule being imposed on business by government.

Trust me in this, if there is a law, there is an entire contingent of professional disabled people who will seek out public pools and sue the owners for failing to comply with the law. These professional disabled people make a living by targeting businesses and reporting ALL failures to comply with EVERY ADA regulation. By becoming a victim, they are entitled to compensation. Some people make a very good living simply filing complaints with various state, local and federal agencies. The key is they have to be the first to report a specific business in order to receive their money.

GREG GERBER
Editor, RV Daily Report

So how many of you have problems with unattended children tearing up your property? I suspect a lift wouldn't last one season with kids playing with it. Perhaps all pools should become "private" instead of public, and a membership or permission would be required of the guest to use someone's private pool...just sayin'
Our tax dollars at work, eh?

Doesn't having this apparatus attached to the deck of the pool now become a dangerous enticement? The reason we removed our diving boards from our swimming pools was a result of insurance mandates resulting from spinal injury lawsuits. This thing would tend to attract misuse at a pool that is unattended as a diving platform, and it's set against a depth of less than 4 feet no less. In 20 years that I've had my pool I've never once been asked to provide wheelchair access but I've seen all sorts of misuse of pool equipment.

A frivolous lawsuit or fine over access might be cheaper than being a litigant in a spinal injury claim.

I guess none of you are planning on having a stroke or becoming paralyzed? I wasn't either when I had my car accident. Yes...I have been all over the county in an RV and have stayed in lots of RV parks where I couldn't use the pool because I could not get in it. I have been unable to use numerous shower facilities too.

Be careful about what you gripe about...

Its about making a pool accessible not about making you spend money....sorry you can't see that.

I would never go to someone's campground and complain about not having access but maybe I will just hire an attorney at the next one...maybe it will be yours Steve.... I can say that all of my stays have been pleasant even without access to the areas able bodied people got to enjoy (bath houses).

The ADA was supposed break down barriers but stupid people will always ensure they exist for those confined to wheelchairs.

I also want to add a couple of other points to my post above.....

There are thousands of disabled RVer's in wheelchairs and many of them do their own renovations/alterations. Hopefully some of them will chime in here as I have shared this with some of "my friends" who are.

I don't appreciate your portrayal Greg Gerber! If busineses would follow the laws then there would be no reason for a contingent of "professional disabled people" (your words not mine). I guess there is no reason for Highway Patrol or Policeman either.

Since I can't use your facilities, why should I pay full price to park at your campground....YOU ARE ROBBING ME CORRECT?

I hope none of you or your family ever end up in an accident that leaves you paralyzed because you will be the first to sing a different tune!!!!

Tonja,

Most business owners I know are more than happy to help accommodate as many people as possible. And they are willing to make changes to their facilities to help disabled people, elderly people, mothers with small children, etc. I am sure many people would agree that push bars and latches are infinitely better than round door knobs.

You make it sound so simple. Just follow the law and there would be no need for enforcement. Which law are you referring to?

The Americans With Disabilities Act itself is only 39 pages long and contains 23,727 words. That simply gives the federal government the ability to regulate business.

The Non Discrimination on Basis of Disability law is only 241 pages containing 100,739 words.

The Non Discrimination on Basis of Disability by Public Accommodations and in Commercial Facilities law is only 272 pages containing 139,569 words.

The 2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design is only 245 pages long and includes 75,078 words -- plus hundreds of drawings and charts.

So, what you are saying is, if only campgrounds comply with 758 pages of laws regarding the ability to make their firms accessible to a relatively small percentage of patrons, they should be fine.

Don't forget that campgrounds must also comply with massive federal labor laws, rules established by the Environmental Protection Agency, USDA food safety regulations, state laws, county laws and local laws. Just how do you propose that business owners comply with every law, and how do you expect them to do so while still charging you a reasonable fee for accommodation?

There is a problem with some disabled people who really truly look for businesses to punish. They don't go to the business owner to explain that something isn't fully accessible. They go right to the state and federal government to file a complaint seeking compensation.

This is just one tiny, tiny aspect of a massive federal law, "Objects with leading edges more than 27 inches (685 mm) and not more than 80 inches (2030 mm) above the finish floor or ground shall protrude 4 inches (100 mm) maximum horizontally into the circulation path. EXCEPTION: Handrails shall be permitted to protrude 4 1/2 inches (115 mm) maximum."

Yet, if a business has a handrail that protrudes 4 5/8 inches, a "professional handicapped person" will ignore the business owner and file a complaint directly with a regulatory agency. Is that fair?

GREG GERBER
Editor, RV Daily Report

If an owner of a campground or any other "public business" does not like complying with laws then they need to find another profession. Just like if you don't like driving the speed limit...RIDE A BUS.

I know plenty of business owners who ignore the law just because they want to... and deny access to individuals just because they can and yes they
get sued.

YOU are unbelievable... Push bars and round door knobs are the difference between some people being able to visit a place of business and not visit a place of business. IS THAT FAIR?

Since you so gratiously promote charitable contributions on your website, perhaps you should spend a day in a wheelchair with your legs immobilized so you can't use them better yet...lets immobilize your hands so that you only have use of your shoulders...then you attempt to do your daily activities of living by yourself . Then you come back here and support what you are saying above.... I have quadriplegic friends who work full time and do it....and YES THOSE HANDRAILS GET IN THEIR WAY.

You have educated me on the ADA...I will be sure to mention it at the next facility that I am unable to use and then maybe I will find a nice lawyer to line my pockets.

Wow,
there are some truly ignorant people out there. UGH! Maybe before bitching & complaining so much, you guys should look at the law, it says ALL PUBLIC pools over a certain size. First of all, this isn't a slight against "small buisiness owners" or some Federal Government way to make you guys shell out a ton of money. As I was reading the article my immediate gut reaction was "OH YEAH! I'll be able to use hotel pools safely now!!!" Yes, hotel pools are included in "public pools" consider how many disabled travelers use hotels & can't use their pools. Consider how many disabled travelers use your parks & don't use the pools because they can't. I RARELY complain about inaccessible features of facilities I stay at, but maybe I really should start with the general opinion of disabled people that like you guys. I have stayed at many many places that were far less than accessible, definitely did NOT meet ADA regulations, however I didn't complain, I just adapted as best I could to what I COULD access & didn't use facilities I couldn't. A fairly inexpensive pool lift is not something that will kill a facility. As a matter of fact, it will make it more appealing to a HUGE segment of the population. You are really marginalizing the portion of the population that can use another feature of your facilities once you make the accessible adaptations.

By March 15, 2012 campgrounds needs to be in compliance. Per the rule: As some of the areas covered in the 2010 Standards were NOT included in the 1991 Standards, there is no element of safe harbor for things not specifically covered in the 1991 Standards. So there is NO safe harbor for any pool without a lift.

Now as a campground owner and a son who Dad was in a chair before he passed a few years ago, I understand the need for this equipment. But I also understand how hard it is to pay for this equipment. If you have a pool and spa, you looking at $14,000 in equipment to install before March 15,2012. Now if you charge $35.00 per night for a campsite, it will need to rent a site 400 times just to pay for this equipment and there is only 365 days in a year. Now who have a campground that the sites are full all year long?

So the easy answer is to just up you price to cover the chair lift. Ok that all fine, we can do that. It will still take me two years to save up the money to pay for this stuff. Most campgrounds are under 100 sites and do not have the cash flow that a large hotel would have to cover this cost. Campgrounds are struggling to maintain what they have now and with today’s unemployment and the economy still doing poorly, campers are holding back on spending money.

If there was a way to get a government grant, I would add one today, but we know that is not going happened. With having to pay for this new equipment the campgrounds just need more time to earn the money to pay for it.

Right now as it stands after this year, it would be more cost effective to fill in all of the spa’s and some of the pools so the campgrounds can be in compliance.

I think what many of you don't realize is that "we", people with disabilities, are not asking for anything "special", we just want equal access to your wonderful facilities. By requesting a lift into the pool, we are acknowledging to you what our needs are to enjoy your facility. Many business owners are happy to say "ok, I'll get right on that" and as soon as that patron leaves, so does that business owners words. This is when government steps in.
Maybe you should focus on the fact that pool lifts are not just for wheelchair bound patrons, but also for grandma who can't safely climb down stairs (or get back up the stairs once she is down them), for Aunt Sue who just had her knee replaced or for anyone else who is unsteady on their feet or has a mobility impairment of some degree.
Some of you also complain that wheelchair users couldn't access the pool anyways b/c of child safety gates and locks. Well, did you ever thing that we might have a companion with us when we go swimming? I was taught as a child to never go swimming alone. Swimming with a buddy is necessary in case of emergency. Even competitive swimmers can find themselves in trouble in water that is too cold, end up with muscle cramps, have a heart attack, etc and need help.
I can almost guarantee that if you were to look hard enough, you could find a grant to cover the expense of purchasing a pool lift. I also know there are portable pool lifts so if you have a pool AND a spa that need to have access, the one pool lift can serve dual purpose (within the same gated area please, I don't want to go all the way across a campground to find the damn pool lift for use in the spa). Also, the comments about the economy don't really "fly" with me right now. Yes, times are difficult, but in difficult times people who would have normally stayed in hotels will save their money when needed and stay in a campground (either tent camping or RV).
The issue here is not access for some, it is access for ALL. You might find that you have a larger client base after your facility is fully accessible b/c the people with disabilities who visit your facility and have a great time will tell all their other friends to visit your facility. I know I would!
(Oh, and for the poster who was talking about objects protruding into the walkway 4" or 4.5" for handrails, that is for a blind person. Any object that protrudes into the walkway is a potential hazard for the blind person, and their white cane won't pick it up since it is off the ground.)
The lesson here is that as a business owner you ARE required to be an expert on law. Especially laws that pertain to your facility. As a public facility you are required to comply with ADA regulations. It might be a pain for you, but that is life for me. If you want to understand why these laws are here, please find a wheelchair to use for a day and don't use your legs AT ALL in your daily activities. You will be surprised how much you learn, and how much stuff you think is accessible but really isn't.

Mandy,

Most of the talk is on how to pay for the chair lift and not that we don’t want to install an chair lift at the pool. As for finding a grant, if there was grant money out there we would all LOVE to go out and buy a chair lift today. Can you help us find a grant?

Don’t just complain that we are not doing enough fast enough for you. Help us! When we built the pool 5 years ago we were in compliance with all of the laws at the time. Now today I’m not. The reason we are not in compliance is another unfunded mandate from the Federal Government and not because we did anything wrong. What ever happen to Grandfathering a place and giving them time to upgrade?

Don’t be so bitter, you should try helping us. Most campgrounds are just small Mom & Pop operations and will find it hard to come up with the eight thousand plus dollars that it looks like it will take to pay for the chair lift. For some campgrounds that can’t come up with an extra 8K will have to just close the pool to everyone. Is that what you want?

WOW the vitrol expressed.

Both 'sides" have valid points of view here.
I. Handicapped folks should have equal access.
2. Campground owners may NOT be able to come up with the cost of lifts in time to meet the deadlines. No matter WHAT is "the right thing to do".

So I'd suppose that to insure "equal access" a lot of pools and spas will simply be closed to everyone as there seems to be no other options. That way everyone suffers. It's often said that misery loves company. I wonder if there's a lot of truth in that.

Due to a back injury I can't walk very far like I used to love to do.
I used to hike (backpack) in the back country for days. Direct cross country, no fancy trails. Now I can barely walk a mile and that on the level.
I suppose accrording to some that since "I" can't do that (go x-country backpacking) anymore no one else should be allowed to either.
????

Someone said something on the order of "grant money is out there".

Well it may be but what campground owner has a professional grant writer in their pocket. Prolly none. Not at what THEY want for wages. There we are at the level of possibility again. Now if the grant writers worked for FREE..........

And as to the Federal Regulations and Laws, please remember also that it actually takes a law degree to interpret most of the pages and pages and pages of federal regulations these days and lawyers don't usually run campgrounds. There are far richer pickin's out there for lawyers.

Namely lawsuits.

Makes one wonder why people try to make a living running campgrounds and RV parks doesn't it?

I actually looked at the Federal grant website today...

Let me do some research.

I have stayed at lots of "mom and pop" campgrounds over the years. I understand they are strapped for cash but I also understand the frustration of not being able to use things that others are. These are some of nicest people and the greatest places and the only reason that I have not complained.

I would be willing to help

Tonja,


Thank you :-) We can use all the help we can get.

The reason we own campgrounds is because we love to make people happy and not just some people and not others. It is good for our business to make as many people as we can happy. It’s how we keep our lights on and smiling faces around the campfires. I just want to say THANK YOU for helping.

I don't know where the 8K figure is coming from, but just doing a quick search on one of my favorite websites, this pool lift falls under 4K: http://www.sportaid.com/aqua-creek-ranger-pool-lift.html. Doing a google search for grants might be beneficial as well. It doesn't necessarily have to come from the government, I'm sure there are non profit organizations that would fund the purchase of a pool lift to allow for accessibility. Maybe try a google search such as "Grants for Adaptive Equipment", "Grants for pool lift", etc. I would love to help in this search if you are unable to find anything, but I am back in school with a heavy course load and it might take me a little bit to find it.
Also, I think that you are being grandfathered into this bill. As of right now, no one is "out of compliance" b/c the lifts are not required to be installed until 2012. If your pool was built 5 years ago (or 20 years ago for that matter) you have until 2012 to get up to code. If you were to install a pool today, then you would need to have the lift installed now.
Also, I think that when we build pools, buildings, etc we should not just strive to meet the current policy regarding accessibility, but we should strive to exceed the current policy. If you know that a pool lift will be helpful to allow everyone equal access to your facility, install it anyways. You will get more clients, and have happier clients b/c they know they can visit your facility anytime and you will have what they need. This does not just go for a pool lift. If you have showering facilities, and you make sure the doors are wide enough, that one of the stalls is "handicap accessible" with grab rails, a fold down shower seat, a removable shower head, etc. you are likely to have return customers and great word of mouth b/c of that.
Remember that you are in a customer service, customer relations position. How you appear to the customer and how you are able to serve the customer will go a long ways.

Mr. Gerber.
As I am currently living in an RV in a campground in Az, I would like to know, exactly how does this law define "public"?
As I see it, if this law is to include privately owned campgrounds, then it must also include any other privately owned swimming pool, including that one you have at home in your backyard.

Let's say you know your local health club has a nice big indoor fancy swimming pool. Can you just walk in off the streets and use it at will? Will an apartment complex that has a swimming pool have to comply simply because the pool is "publically available"? Even though the user might not live on the premises?

But it is rather obvious that lobbyists pushed for this safety improvement and paid some rather big bucks to get the bill passed. Then what I'd like to know is, who is going to enforce the law?

The really easy answer for some owners will be to close the pool..

This is my last post to this forum...I came back here with information that I researched most of the day to help some of you to get grant money to help fund these improvements that are FEDERAL LAW.

However, I am going to reply to Richard of Arizona and then I am going to go away and stay away.

Richard, if a site is rented in a campground it is not a private place. It is a "public" place of business.

A local health club is also a public place because it is also a place of business and those big indoor fancy pools are required to meet the same regulations because again...they serve the public and it is a public place too.


Richard. apartment complexes don't let people walk in off the street and use their pools. Insurance regulations don't permit this. You better stay in your RV site...its not safe for you in the "real" world.

AGAIN IT IS NOT ABOUT SAFETY...IT IS ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS.

Richard...a little branch of the Federal government called the DEPARTMENT OF jUSTICE will handle the enforcement of this law....and its going to cost a business $110,000 per violation.....not just per pool RICHARD per violation of the ADA....

As Mr GErber already pointed out (and he has counted the words)....there are many regulations to follow...

http://www.ada.gov/

The ignorance here is astounding and I was willing to help....I found the resources but you people are not worth my time!

Some stray points:

Every (and I know several) "enabled" person I know, that camps, didn't hire an RV shop to modify anything. If they hired anyone, they hired a pro-shop that does nothing but modify vehicles.

I also know more then one that tent camps (in a wheel chair no less)

As for clubs... that becomes a "it depends" as some ADA rules except certain types of clubs. From my reading, it appears that membership campgrounds might be excluded from this rule

Greg is certainly "over the top" in his claim that there are lots of "enabled" out there looking to sue (and implying they do it for the cash).

But there are those out there that think that the ADA means they can demand just about anything. Like the folk that (for a camping event in a pasture) that thought they could demand we provide power to charge their wheel-chairs. Or the one that thought we should have had every prota-john be a handi-access. or....

phred,
Thank you for your post. It made many valid points. As for a couple of the "demands" from people with disabilities, the two you mention are definitely out of line. If you are camping in a PASTURE, and NO ONE is getting electricity b/c there are no electric hook ups ANYWHERE, then you are not being discriminated against. You should have checked online or called to see if there would be a power outlet to charge your powered wheelchair or if a manual wheelchair would be necessary for the event. As for the guy who thought every port-a-john should be handicap accessible, well that is just ridiculous. I do agree that AT LEAST one needs to be handicap accessible, but just as when we go to a store or a restaurant, not every stall needs to be accessible. As long as I can get to an accessible stall in my area of the campground (hopefully you have a space that is saved for easy access to the facilities, if not may I suggest you consider that when placing a person with a disability) I am more than happy. By having at least one port-a-john that I can use, I am being allowed ACCESS to the facilities that meet my needs. I'm sure there are guidelines on how many accessible port-a-johns are required for the number of expected occupants. When we have events for groups that I volunteer with we have to follow these guidelines when ordering port-a-johns.

As a former now retired Executive Director of a Statewide Campground Owners Association for 27 years I can understand the frustrations on both sides of this issue.

The real issue as I see it is not so much the unfunded federal mandate as it is the time frame for compliance. Typically Federal and State law makers set compliance deadlines with little or no thought to the financial impact caused by their decisions.

On the surface, the basic cost would appear to those not involved in the Camping Industry to be a small price for a Campground/RV Park owner to pay for
catering to their clientel. However, the reality is, this is not true.

Lets take a park with and indoor pool, an outdoor pool and a hot tub. At the cost suggested by one person who posted a comment of $7,000.00 per lift that is $21,000.00. However, lets focus on one pool at $7,000.00.

The 2011 season is about to begin and the talk is of gas prices soaring to over five dollars per gallon by July. That means less revenue for the 2011 season as occupancy will be down across the country. Nothing will be done in most instances within the industry for this year, as this mandate was not included in 2011 budgets. If occupancy is down it will be impossible to include costs for this in the Campground/RV Park budgets for 2012. Borrowing money to fund this is out of the question for many who take out escrow loans for Spring start up to begin with. Northeast Campgrounds/RV Parks have a limited Spring work time well after the projected deadline.

As the Federal Government enforcing agency has no choice but to ensure compliance they will assess those outrageous $110,000.00 fines assuring the bankruptcy of the non-compliant Campground/RV Park.

The answer while not simple, is to extend the mandated start date for three years to allow for budgets to be adjusted for compliance.

Once again let me say I understand the frustrations on both sides of this issue however, the industry needs adequate time to prepare financially for these unexpected added expenses.

Ron Brown

I guess it's time to restate my former comments.

Because misery seems to love company, we will all prolly have to do without pools or hot tubs.
Gain for the disabled = none.
Loss for the rest of us including the kids = a lot.

Thanks ADA and Congress.

Not everyone has the financial resources to buy these kind of equipments. They should have consulted the public or the owners before passing it to law.

So the just of this is.... if I can't use it.... no one should get to use it.

I wonder just how many pools and hot tubs will get filled in this year.

Pool lift $4000.00+
Load of dirt $400.00

Do the math. If the campground can’t afford the pool, some fill dirt and flowers may be in the price range.

I understand disabled people I am one and am married to a man who had a stroke. I empathize, sympathize and walk in shoes that are on both sides of the fence. I was injured at work which is not in the least bit poetic justice but odd that I worked in transportation. The buses seldom had lifts on them, but if the passengers called and ordered tickets and informed the line then always a lift coach. I can not tell you how many times the lift malfunctioned. Different story. The restrooms were not available to the disabled. There are many things that are not with in the grasp of existing facilities. I would love to buy an RV park and set it up to meet the criteria of the needs of the disabled. Money is not in my pocket and I see none happening. Is it fair, not at all. Bureaucratic nightmares will not bring anyone peace in their life. It will put a lot of good small businesses out of business.

The $$$ aside. This is an entrapment. The regulation states that the the lift must be available at all times the pool is open.
Example: Grandma gets to the pool after getting there with her walker. She sees the lift and finds it is an easy way to get into the pool. The water is warm, and she enjoys herself.
She then leaves by the stairs and goes back to her RV.

... what you have, is a seat, cord, and foot rest 18 inches under water. With the pool full of families and children. This is a disaster in waiting.
After spending thousands on the Gramme/Backer act to remove entrapments. We are now being told to put them back.

I don't disagree that people with disabilities need access to public swimming pools but thanks to this law nobody will be swimming. The problem is that two small town public pools in our area are closing because they cannot afford the chair lift on strained municiple budgets. The pools already lose $10,000 a year on average and another $6,500 for a lift has pushed city council members to make the tough decision to close the pools. This summer everything will be very fair in our town. Nobody will get to swim at all.